A mistake in LOTR ? ! ?

[Thranduil]

In a note made by Tolkien he says the translation of the Moria Gate inscription is slightly incorrect...

we all remember "...Im Narvi hain echant..." translated at the time as "I Narvi made them (the gates)"

...but Tolkien realised the inscriptions were etched by Celebrimbor; and thus would have been third person, not first...

with a new translation "It was (verily) Narvi himself who made them"

"Im" becoming a general reflexive rather than the preposition "I"

Obviously this was well after the publications release and no amendment was made... [he amended the Hobbit though didn't he!]


He then went on to write the phrase "Im Elrond echanthel" without translation... hmmmmmmmmmm

There is another inconsistancy in the inscription which will wait 'til later; I'm off to the pub...

[Lady Arwen]

Yeah, so, Tolkein was dumb a few times. But can't you give that to him? He did create a whole other world, and the languages too. I'm sure he should be allowed one or two slip ups.

[Thranduil]

Dumb, would be too strong a word perhaps... I was more... trying to start a discussion (It has to be admitted: Out of pure randomnessness)

Just thought it was interesting... i guess

I promise: No more JrrT bashing... (not that my intent was to do that)

He must have been far more clever than I; for he noticed the inconsistancy, where as I did not (until it was brought to my attention)

For the record: Everyone including the late great Mr T is allowed to make mistakes...

[curandir]

The gate inscription, quoted as 'from happier times' when Elves (in Hollin) and the Dwarves (of Khazad-dum) traded and built things of beauty together for the first time in an age...

The Dwarfish name for Moria means Dwarf-Mansion, with Elvish Translation Hadhodrond; from which the common toungue renders Dwarrow-delf...

So... in a time of such prosperity and friendship; why did they use the derogatory name Moria (meaning Black-chasm) for that which was at its peak of beauty... The greatest Dwarf delving (as described a little by Gimli...)

Some say this is due to the practical jokes of elves (remember: The Noldor are loremasters and craftsmen, not playful wood elves...)

Others say it is the Dwarves who did not understand what was written... I don't think so... The Dwarves took to new languages quickly and easily, for they were technically minded and relied upon other languages in order to conceal their own...

I think it was just easier than having a long paragraph recounting the history of that place outside the gate... Having introduced Khazad-dum as Moria previously it would interupt the narrative if it were inscribed Hadhodrond... and would need explaining...

Still others say that the record is but a translation given by Gandalf in Haste and recorded by others after the events... and therefore inaccurate...

Interesting one that...
Whether Tolkien has evermentioned it, I do not know...

[Thranduil]

On reflection, I think it would still be quite correct to say, Im Thranduil, when asked my name, regardless of the gate inscription...

If someone were to use: Man eneth lin? (what is your name?)

I think: to answer 'verily *name*' is fine, really and saves adding longer replies like Estar nin Thranduil, they call me Thranduil

or, nin istannen Thranduil 'I (am) known as Thranduil'

'Im' is perhaps less controversial, as the other examples involve a certain amount of interpretation and their forms could be slightly different... as Tolkien changed his perception of existing translations Mae Govannen, became Mae g(i)'ovannen... gi from ci, meaning thou with a softened form of Govannen, 'met', though written in LoTR as it was spoken, ie still the recognisable Mae Govannen...

So perhaps (Sui) Thranduil nistannen would be preferable... (As) Thranduil I (am) known...

Elvish, eh, who'd use it...(?) lol